Implications (Part Three)
image source: hdwallpapers.in
Nature, for the want of a better term, hates an energy imbalance and will exert considerable force to eliminate it.
Two true stories for you to ponder upon.
A small sail boat crossing the Indian Ocean, has three sailors aboard; Skipper, Engineer and a Logician(cook, radio man and general hand). The yacht has two perfectly good high capacity batteries. One to provide power to the Radio, the other to provide power to running lights and illumination for crew to get dressed. (4hrs on, 4 hrs on standby and 4 hours sleep, day in day out (77 days at sea)). The engine is run every morning while breakfast is being prepared and eaten.
One morning the engine wont start, the battery is soon flat!
The Skipper was about to throw the switch and use the other battery when the Logician points out that if that battery also fails to start the motor how they going to call for help. The Skipper storms off, ‘You fix the darn motor then!’
The logician removes the covers and tells the engineer to get ready to hand crank the motor, a difficult but not impossible task.
‘Ok Crank it, turn it over about 4 times.’ The motor does not start.
The logician does his thing, he has no obvious tools in his hands!
‘OK Start her up!’
The engineer cranks the motor and it starts immediately. Emergency over.
2nd story.
A Logician in a group home, Owner has a job that requires lots of stop start driving – delivering stuff and drives a Diesel powered vehicle just out of warranty.
One morning the engine wont start. She calls Triple A, a very large battery is connected and eventually the engine starts. It behaves perfectly all day. Next morning it wont start, Triple A gets it going and the lady owner takes the offending vehicle to the garage she purchased it from, who work on it all day and present her with a quite large service bill.
Next morning the engine wont start. The furious owner calls Triple A and the engine starts after some considerable cranking. The lady owner takers the vehicle back to the garage who transport it to the big city company service garage. Two days later the vehicle is returned with a huge repair bill.
Next morning the engine wont start. The Owner is really totally distraught and severely out of pocket and is shouting curses down the phone, ‘Fix the damn engine!’
The Logician offers to fix it. ‘Do what you like while I arrange for the TV people to come visit’!
‘I will need your help for a moment or two before you do that,’ says the Logician.
The hood is raised the logician requests the owner turn the ignition on and turn the engine over for a second or two.
The Logician does his stuff, he has no obvious tools in his hands.
‘OK start her up’!
The engine fires, the Logician shuts the hood and walks away.
‘What did you do?’
The Logician laughs, ‘Well that’s a secret and why I get paid such a lot of money’!
What did the Logician do?
Why is it a consequence of Nature hating an imbalanced energy distribution?
Michael (Logician).
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jerry krause
| #
Hi Michael,
In the first story, the Logician does not tell us that the engine involved might also be a Diesel engine. But I have read and understand why an engine of a boat most likely would be a Diesel engine. For an observed fact is that diesel fuel is much less volatile than gasoline.
Two, I know from practical experience that diesel engines do not have spark plugs. And from experience I know that with a gasoline fueled engines, that that there two primary reasons that the engine will not start: no spark or no fuel.
With the diesel engine no spark cannot be the problem. But I know from reading that the early diesel engines used a ‘pony’ (if I remember the term correctly) gasoline engine to start the diesel engine.
From reading I understand the reason the diesel engine doesn’t need spark plugs to ignite the fuel in its cylinder (or cylinders) is that the diesel engine is designed to have much greater compression ratio than the gasoline engine has. Hence, the compression of the atmosphere in the cylinder generates heat so at maximum compression some diesel fuel is injected in to the very hot gas (atmosphere) and ignites the fuel.
Now, I am sure there was a significant difference between the size of the boat moter which was to just to charge batteries and the engine of a large car. Hence, there is a problem of starting a cold diesel engine. The initial cranking of the engine which does create ‘heat energy’ must first warm the metal of the cylinder so the initial squires of the diesel fuel is not ignited and instead vaporized (further cooling the cylinder).
Now, another thing the Logician did tell us, in either case, was the temperature of the atmosphere. In the case of the boat, its starter might have cranked the cold engine too rapidly if the atmosphere was too cold. Hence, the heated atmosphere and diesel fuel was exhausted from the engine before it had chance to significantly warm the cylinder. But when the engineer is told: “‘Ok Crank it, turn it over about 4 times.’ and “The motor [still] does not start.” But it starts when the engineer next cranks it.
Now the Logician has given us a clue: “Nature, for the want of a better term, hates an energy imbalance and will exert considerable force to eliminate it.” The Logician, while he does his stuff with no obvious tools in his hands, is allowing the ‘temperature) generated by cranking the engine a quite short time, is merely allowing the temperature to be distributed to a critical part of the engine.
I am not a logician but I am a practical mechanic who has experiences and reads and tries to understand what I read relative to my experiences. We will have to await the Logician’s response to my comment.
Have a good day, Jerry
Reply
DUNCAN MACCRIMMON
| #
Would a spray can of ether to be sprayed on the air intake filter of the engine count as a tool?
Reply
Herb Rose
| #
Hi Jerry,
While it is true that Diesel engines do not have spark plugs the engines did have glow plugs. These needed to heat up to initiate the first combustion and if not allowed to warm up the addition of fuel too early would inhibit ignition.
Herb
Reply
Michael Clarke
| #
Not even close guys, no glow plug, no can of fast start spray, and yes it had been quite cold over night.
The Logician had spent just few seconds doing his thing, well he did two things, the first before he got the engine cranked over and the reverse thing when the engine started.
Reply
jerry krause
| #
Hi Michael,
You did not directly respond to my comment except that it was quite cold overnight. So, with your second clue, I propose you pinched off the fuel line so the cylinder would be purged of the liquid fuel, some of which could have been evaporating and cooling the atmosphere a little as it was being compressed. I have never heard of a diesel engine becoming flooded, but it certainly does occur with gasoline engines.
And I need to remind you, your solution had nothing to do logic. If you know nothing about diesel engines from reading or personal experience, logic alone could not have prompted you to do anything. Unless, Newton had not learned Euclidian Geometry he could not have ‘invented’ calculus. If someone had not drawn circles and right lines in the sand and seen that the compass (bent stick) seemed to divide the circle into sixths. And by drawing two circles which intersect each other it is not hard to draw a right (straight) line through the two intersections and see that bisects the right line drawn through the two centers (pivot points) of the two circles.. Maybe?
Newton knew that ocean tides were very variable at one place to another and from one time to another. But he claimed to have explained these tides which must be somewhat described as being random. But, evidently Newton could see that there were practical perturbations acting upon the principle effect of his theory of universal gravitation which produced the almost random results.
The result of your hypothesis worked, but does that mean whatever you did will always work? Maybe it would often work. But Einstein, a scientist, wrote—”No amount of experimentation can ever prove me right, a single experiment can prove me wrong.”
Have a good day, Jerry
Reply
WhoKoo
| #
How about increasing the air to fuel ratio. Take the cover off the air filter and replace the cover once the motor is running.
Reply
Michael Clarke
| #
Still not close.
Third clue, after re-placing the covers the Logician had to clean a small amount of the diesel fuel from his hands.
And I knew precisely what was wrong with the engine, from the noise it was making as they flattened the battery when they were trying to get it started.
Pure Logic in action. I could have done the required actions alone, but it was more fun to see and hear the Engineers reaction when the engine started after just a few seconds of attention.
The sail boat engine, a two cylinder Yanmar, the wagon a 4 cylinder Holden.
Michael (Logician)
Reply
WhoKoo
| #
Hi Michael Clarke and curious bystanders.
In answer to one of your earlier questions while cleaning the diesel off your hands.
Red herring time.
The small tides at the polar regions can be considered by observing the sun at midsummer polar with a hypothetical earth perfect central axis of rotation.
It is all day sun but maintains a constant angle above the horizon giving an unchanging quantum of solar radiance.
The moon’s gravity at the poles is the same conceptual constant giving no tides except for the moon’s Southern and Northern orbital oscillation extremes. I have not factored in apogee, perigee, and gravity from other celestial bodies.
The single water molecule at the North Pole does a perpetual pirouette at midsummer. (satire)
Regards WhoKoo
Reply
jerry krause
| #
Hi WhoKoo,
“It is all day sun but maintains a constant angle above the horizon giving an unchanging quantum of solar radiance.”
This statement is based upon the false assumption that the polar axis, about which the earth rotates, points directly at the sun at the pole’s summer solstice.
Have a good day, Jerry
Reply
WhoKoo
| #
Hi Jerry.
Not what I said or intimated. “constant angle above horizon” means just that although if one chose to be pedantic ignoring variable horizon heights caused by topographical variance in Antarctic is necessary
I am also aware the term “unchanging quantum of solar radiance. ” can be challenged as I ignored potential variable cloud cover in atmospheric quadrants but kept it simple to keep the polar tidal concept simple so even a chocolate Labrador can go figure.
Not like you to make an error Jerry.
Kind regards. WhoKoo
Reply
Herb Rose
| #
Hi Michael,
I know that diesel fuel will gel in cold weather and that anti gelling compounds are added in winter but gelling fuel would not conform to your original statement of nature will use considerable force to balance energy. Did the cooling of a cylinder cause fuel to be sucked in through an open valve from a fuel injector?
Herb
Reply
jerry krause
| #
Hi Michael,
“And I knew precisely what was wrong with the engine, from the noise it was making as they flattened the battery when they were trying to get it started.”
This statement proves there was no direct logic involved. For without this observation which you admitted, any practical reasoning could not have been done. You knew that what you heard when the engine didn’t start was different from when it did start. This comparison obviously required two observations which a ‘poor’ scientist would not have noticed. So you solved the problem using ‘pure’ science, without which you could not have applied your ‘rational’ thought.
I do not know how you got diesel fuel on your hands as I have never had such direct experiences with a diesel engine. But I am still pondering about “he has no obvious tools in his hands”. Maybe, instead of bending the fuel line so no fuel would flow, you had a short screwdriver hidden in you hand with which you loosened the clamp connecting the fuel line and disconnected the fuel line from the injector system so not fuel would flow.
Have a good day, Jerry
Reply
Michael Clarke
| #
Hi Jerry, getting closer.
Reviewing the clues, Energy Imbalance, Engine run every morning to recharge the batteries, Indian Ocean, cold at night. engine refused to start. A few seconds and then engine hand cranked, a few more seconds and the engine starts, Fuel on my hands.
I will add another clue, there was no smell of fuel when the covers were removed.
Michael
Reply
jerry krause
| #
Hi Michael,
I had been assuming that the exhaust was being directly vented to the outside of the boat. But now it seems possible that the inside of the engine compartment was being isolated from the ‘living space’ of the boat by its shielding. About this possibility I can have no knowledge but you easily could have.
I have often quoted from the publisher’s preface to the readers of Galileo’s ‘Dialogues’. “Intuitive knowledge keeps pace with accurate definition.”
It is becoming obvious that you have not accurately defined the specific case you have challenged us with. It seems you had knowledge of the circumstances that you have not given us. Therefore, based on accurate definition which you maybe had, you did not even have to do any rational reasoning, as the solution to the problem became ‘intuitively’ (without reasoning) obvious.
Have a good day, Jerry
Reply
jerry krause
| #
Hi Michael,
I forgot, as usual, to add my thought which i had when I began the previous comment. I have heard and read that gasoline engines can have ‘vapor lock’. It has never happened to me so I do not even know where this ‘vapor lock’ occurs in the car’s fuel system. But I do know there is usually a fuel pump to transfer the fuel to the former carbrater (Sp??) and now generally fuel injectors. So I can imagine that if the liquid in the pump becomes a gas (vapor) the mechanical pump cannot pump any liquid fuel. And I am aware that this ‘vapor lock’ occurs during times of high temperatures, not cold temperatures.
But I know fluids generally contract as their temperature decreases. So I wonder if this contraction might cause an ’empty’ space in the ejector so it can not eject a metered amount of fuel in the cylinder as intended. Now, I remember that the only way to shut off a diesel engine is to shut off the fuel supply. And I have no knowledge how this is practically done and the throttle is moved to an extreme position. There is so much I do not know about that which I know only a little.
Have a good day, Jerry
Reply
Michael Clarke
| #
Well reasoned Jerry. And I knew from the failure to make any engine fire that it was fuel starvation. I reasoned that as it had been a cold night having been at the helm from 4 am that there was a significant probability that an air bubble had formed between the fuel injector and the cylinder. A very small shifter spanner was all that would fit in the confined space so had that in my hand. Desiel engine exhaust is used to help the bilge pump and spits water and exhaust out the back of the boat so yes enclosed space.
So No sounds of attempted combustion, hot engine from the morning before and a cold night and LOGIC.
Reply
jerry krause
| #
Hi Michael,
Thank you for your response. But what is shifter spanner? And what did you actually do with it? As I said, I really do not have any actual experience with diesel engines beside what I have already written.
Have I written that I like challenges as yours to ponder a possible answer. And it helps to know there is an answer which cannot be questioned. For in your case I knew you had actually solved the problem and I would not believe everyone who told your story. Some people make up tall tails.
Have a good day, Jerry
JaKo
| #
Michael,
I’m not trying to be pedantic; however, there is NO chance of “an air bubble had formed between the fuel injector and the cylinder.,” as beyond the injector, there is nothing but air (hopefully, in the case of a boat;-) The typical diesel injector (save the newer CR Injector) has three functional parts:
(i) Valve — very high pressure-actuated (@ ~170 atm / 2500 PSI in a typical Yanmar)
(ii) Nozzle — to spray the fuel into the combustion chamber (or pre-chamber)
(iii) Return — pressure relief/excess fuel collection outlet
So the offending bubble would likely form in the high pressure line between the injector pump and the injector and therefore would prevent the valve to open and inject the required amount of fuel into the combustion chamber…
So you likely loosened the high-pressure fitting on the injector. It would be rather fruitless to unscrew the injector from the cylinder.
BTW,
Properly designed and functioning injection system would quickly dispose of any bubbles in the high-pressure line via the return line subsystem.
BTW No. Deux,
The volume of fuel in one injection is a fraction of a ml (milli-liter)
Take care,
JaKo
Michael Clarke
| #
Hi Jerry, A shifter is an adjustable wrench about 4″ long and small enough to get into the cramped space and partially undo the sealing nut where the fuel lines from injection system entered the cylinders. When the engine was hand cranked the fuel injection system forced the air bubble out with a little fuel, hence I got some diesel on my hands.
Michael (Logician)
Reply
jerry krause
| #
Hi Michael,
Here in the USA I believe we term your adjustable wrench a crescent wrench.
Michael, we know for a period of time more people than I responded to your posting. And I wonder if they realize (recognize) and more than you that your were practicing ‘pure’ science. We do not know if they are still reading what you just commented and what i will soon submit what I am now composing.
You were practicing pure science because you consciously input the information available to your body into your ‘logical’ mind. Which they also have and I also have. You heard with your ears. You smelled with your odor sensors. You felt it was cold without using a thermometer. You had no numbers to put into your logical mind (computer). Only qualitative information. Qualitative information, without which, you could have never reasoned how the engine might be started.
Some readers, who actually read your posting, without making a comment might have reasoned why you wrote at PSI what you wrote and John O’Sullivan posted. But, If they did question the why of your posting at PSI, they clearly do not understand the simple method of learning, which we call science.
We humans have been given our sensors and our minds for a good reason. But it seems too many do not use what we have been given.
Have a good day, Jerry
Reply
dave jr
| #
Well, well, well Michael; the statement, “The Logician does his stuff, he has no obvious tools in his hands” was a trick. The word ‘obvious’ being the slight of hand (of mouth). Good one.
But the air bubble couldn’t have been in the injector line between the fuel pump and an injector because the pressurized fuel would have eventually pushed the air out through the injector during the first attempts to start the engine before the battery goes flat. Also the other cylinders without a bubble in their lines would have fired where the engine would have run rough for a few seconds until the bubble(s) cleared and running on all cylinders. The bubble was in the fuel pump. During the no start cranks, the bubble compresses and decompresses and is unable to create enough pressure to push fuel to the injectors. Essentially the fuel pump lost its’ prime. Thereby no fuel moves, no bubble is cleared and no engine start. But your solution of cracking an injector line, or any line down stream of the pump for that matter, did its magic because you lowered the pressure at the fuel pump outlet enough so that compressing the air bubble can overcome line pressure and move out, whereby the pump can now pick up fuel. Consequently, pressurizing the fuel tank (10-15 psi max) often works in this situation too.
So the real problem is due to a slight leak in the fuel system that leaks inward or ‘sucks’ air into the system during cool down due to different coefficients of thermal expansion between different materials in a sealing connection, or possibly a one way leak on an O-ring seal, or possibly a crack in pump housing. If air finds its way to the pump, you’re screwed and logical action is needed, as you provided. Most modern diesels have a manual pump on the filter housing to aid in these situations, usually after a filter change. These temperature differential induced leaks are the hardest to find and repair because they don’t always leak fuel out.
Believe it or not, I would have gotten it if it weren’t for the word “obvious”.
But thank you for the puzzle. I really do enjoy it!
Reply
Michael Clarke
| #
Hi Dave Jr,
The Bubbles in the 2 and 4 cylinder engines was between the Injector system and the cylinders, Copper Pipes. The obvious failure to even cough when they flattened the battery shouted fuel starvation to All cylinders.
The fuel on my hands after my adjustment was because it was spat out along with the air bubble, when the engine was turned over a couple of times, WHILE the fuel lines were not sealed!
After the event I removed and cleaned the actual fuel injector nozzles and we never had any more problems, so I am quite sure that the air got sucked back into the pipes due to the temperature difference as the engine cooled.
Michael Logician
Reply
jerry krause
| #
Hi Dave Jr,
You wrote: “But the air bubble couldn’t have been in the injector line between the fuel pump and an injector because the pressurized fuel would have eventually pushed the air out through the injector during the first attempts to start the engine before the battery goes flat.”
I want to beat the Logician to his possible response. First it seems you ignore the fact that the ‘high capacity’ battery went flat before the air was pushed out through the injector. We do not know how long the ‘engineer’ cranked on the motor before this battery went flat. We must believe the Logician that the motor promptly started we the engineer hand cranked it the second time.
The Logician first success was with the two cylinder 4-cycle (I assume) boat motor. Hence, the request: ” turn it over about 4 times.” This insured that there would have been a compression cycle for both cylinders.
Next it seems you overlook the problem caused by air bubble. A liquid is not compressible; a gas bubble is, And only a tiny volume of fuel is to be injected when the cylinder is at the maximum compression near when the little volume of fuel is to be injected. Less there is maximum pressure opposing the injection of the fuel into the cylinder. I am sure the Logician loosened both connections.
So, I, a scientist who tries to observe all that can be observed, consider your comment no better than the can of ether
Of course, I, a scientist, know I could be wrong as I often have been because I fail to observe the most obvious of factors. And even though the Logician resists the suggestion that only using the observation method of science; the observed fact that he used observation to solve the problem. And he tested his reasoning and actions by experimentation: did the engine start or not start?
Have a good day, Jerry
Reply
Michael Clarke
| #
Hi Jerry,
Well reasoned and you beat me to the punch, Dave Jr did NOT get it right nor would he have if I had said I had a small adjustable spanner with me.
The energy difference was not when the engine cooled down after it’s morning battery charging session. I am quite sure it was overnight when it got quite cold. The engine block a considerable chunk of metal, and firmly fixed to a hull which was maintained at water temperature, and the tiny fuel filled copper pipes exposed to that very cold air did the deed! The rest of the fuel system was rubber hoses. When the engine cooled after its morning session the copper pipes would have been kept warm by the engine block!
So ALL the factors had to be assessed and reasoned through.
More essays like this are in the pipeline to PSI.
Michael Logician
Reply
Scientist
| #
This paper, first published in 2013, explains what actually happens in regard to heat transfer processes in the tropospheres and even sub-surface regions of planets and satellite moons. It contains a world-first discovery which accounts for the “missing energy” needed to assist solar radiation in attaining observed global mean surface temperatures in planets like Earth and Venus. This energy is not supplied by “back radiation” as NASA and climatology energy diagrams imply, but is facilitated by the fact that, as Josef Loschmidt explained in 1876, gravity forms a non-zero temperature gradient in planetary tropospheres by acting on individual molecules in flight between collisions. This is the state of maximum entropy (with the sum of mean molecular kinetic energy and gravitational potential energy homogeneous over altitude) and that state is called “thermodynamic equilibrium” by physicists. Because it is a state of equilibrium, a disturbance brought about by absorption of solar energy near the top of the troposphere will result in downward natural (or “free”) convective heat transfer, surprisingly from cooler to warmer regions. This happens because the process is indeed increasing entropy towards a new equilibrium state.
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/douglas-cotton-b794a871_planetary-core-and-surface-temperatures-activity-6607066373015379968-WcRW
Reply
Michael Clarke
| #
I almost agree, except that as Gravity caused molecules to ‘Fall’ they are gaining kinetic energy hence are getting warmer so the energy transfer is not from cold to warm, but from high kinetic energy to low kinetic energy molecules.
You have to learn to assess all the factoids.
Michael Logician
Reply
Herb Rose
| #
Hi Michael,
The only reason the atmosphere is not a layer of liquid held to the surface of the Earth by gravity is because the kinetic energy of the molecules converts it to a gas and expands against the force of gravity. Molecules fall because they lose kinetic energy (cool) and succumb to gravity. As a logician explain how losing kinetic energy can cause kinetic energy to increase.
Herb
Reply
jerry krause
| #
Hi Michael,
You are becoming quite a scientist as you imagine molecules falling. Of course, you know that as they fall their speed must be accelerated; hence their kinetic energy and temperature increases.
But what I do not read are the words–potential energy. A molecule in a gravitation field has two energies. Their energy of motion (kinetic) and their energy of position (potential). So as a molecule falls its potential energy is being converted into kinetic energy and there is no change in its total energy (an adiabatic condition, no gain or lost of energy). Hence, the predicted temperature gradient of the atmosphere if the system was (is) adiabatic. No transfer of total energy, only the exchange of potential energy to kinetic energy.
And adiabatic is another critical word (which defines the system being considered) I seldom read in these comments.
Have a good day, Jerry
Have a good day, Jerry
Reply
Michael Clarke
| #
Hi Jerry, I think you left out the actual ‘Energy’ that got it up there in the first place, it’s ‘Temperature’ in relation to its surroundings, I think that may be referred to as it’s latent energy. It got ‘Hot’, it went up, there were collisions with other molecules and it either got hotter and went further up, stalled as it lost a bit of energy at height ‘x’, or started to fall back. A very dynamic set of options.
The Ideal gas laws are very poorly applied in the atmosphere!
Reply
Herb Rose
| #
Hi Michael,
You got it right.
The root of people’s problem in the atmosphere is the belief that the thermometer measures the mean kinetic energy of the medium and that the thermometer is applicable for use in a gas.
The thermometer is designed to have one section exposed to the medium being tested and another section radiating the absorbed energy into a different medium. In a mercury thermometer the mercury in the bulb absorbs energy while the mercury in the stem radiates energy. If the whole thermometer is exposed to only one medium (the entire thermometer submerged in boiling water) then the measurement is not of the energy difference but the total energy absorbed from that medium.The same area is both absorbing and radiating energy. (The submerged thermometer will record a temperature greater than 100 C even though the water molecules cannot exceed 100 C.)
In the atmosphere the number of molecules (mass) transferring energy to the thermometer changes with altitude, meaning the total kinetic energy at an altitude will be a product of two variables: the mass transferring energy and the velocity of the molecules. When you descend in the atmosphere there are more molecules transferring energy which gives a higher temperature (total kinetic energy of the molecules) even though the velocity of the molecules (kinetic energy of the individual molecules) is lower. There is no adiabatic heating. If there was the conservation of energy would mean that molecules would remain at one altitude.
There is also no potential energy. Gravity is a product of energy not mass.
Herb
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geran
| #
Herb, you are still confused about a thermometer. It does not measure “heat”. It measures the average energy of molecules in contact with it. The medium being measured transfers energy to the liquid in the thermometer, which achieves equilibrium. That equilibrium causes a calibrated expansion of the liquid, which can be read off the thermometer scale.
Simple and basic.
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Zoe Phin
| #
Herb,
“even though the velocity of the molecules (kinetic energy of the individual molecules) is lower”
This is not true for the troposphere. I show velocities here:
https://phzoe.wordpress.com/2019/12/03/standard-troposphere/
Reply
jerry krause
| #
Hi Michael,
All most read your comment and did not notice that you submitted it today.
I when back a bit in the comments and found you wrote: “You have to learn to assess all the factoids.”
No I don’t. THAT IS THE MOST STUPID THING A LOGICAL PERSON SHOULD DO!!!
The only fact are observed facts and we must even be careful there to question: Have we observed all the facts relative that portion of the Universe upon which we are focusing our attentions?
Have a good day, jerry
Reply
James McGinn
| #
Geran:
A thermometer does not measure “heat”. It measures the average energy of molecules in contact with it.
James:
Geran, movement of energy IS heat. And the only way to measure or detect energy is if it moves, producing heat. A thermometer measures the movement/flow expressing it in units of temperature. What is literally being measured in a thermometer is the rate of energy flowing into the thermometer minus the rate of energy flowing out of the thermometer.
Geran:
The medium being measured transfers energy to the liquid in the thermometer, which achieves equilibrium.
James:
Right. I agree. But what is actually being detected is the flow of energy, which is heat.
James McGinn
Solving Tornadoes: Woke Meteorology
https://anchor.fm/james-mcginn
Reply
geran
| #
Wrong again, James.
There is no “heat” when the thermometer is at equilibrium with what it is measuring. Study the definition of “heat”, along with how a thermometer works.
Reply
James McGinn
| #
Geran,
There is no “heat” when the thermometer is at equilibrium with what it is measuring.
James:
You are confused. Heat is the flow of energy (do you dispute this Geran? yes or no. [Answer this question, you evasive twit.]). If there was no energy constantly flowing into the thermometer its temperature would drop down to absolute zero. You somehow got confused into believing that flow is zero when equilibrium is achieved, which is nonsense. Equilibrium happens when the flow of energy (again, flow of energy is the same thing as heat) in and the flow of energy out are the same. But it certainly does not mean the flow is shut off, which is what you are, strangely, insinuating.
James McGinn / Genius
Solving Tornadoes: Woke Meteorology
https://anchor.fm/james-mcginn
Reply
geran
| #
Wrong again, James.
Had you been able to understand what “heat” is, you would understand that it is not just a flow of energy. “Heat” is the flow of energy from “hot” to “cold”. If there is equilibrium, there is no “heat”.
You don’t seem able to learn and understand the basics. No wonder you have so much trouble understanding the water molecule.
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Herb Rose
| #
Geran,
Energy, like the energy between the Earth and the sun, is undetectable until it encounters mater, usually creating kinetic energy or heat. You believe that the water molecules locked in an ice crystal at 0 C have the same motion (energy) as 0 C water molecules that have motion. You believe that 100 C steam molecules have the same energy and 100 C water molecules.
You are an unthinking idiot who believes definitions not evidence. Both you and Zoe are too dumb to realize that if you respond to Doug you just encourage his delusions and posts. You should learn to shut up and nor respond to idiots, which is my policy for you and Zoe.
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Zoe Phin
| #
Herb,
“You believe that the water molecules locked in an ice crystal at 0 C have the same motion (energy) as 0 C water molecules that have motion. You believe that 100 C steam molecules have the same energy and 100 C water molecules.”
You blur the difference between translational, vibrational, rotational, and potential motion.
Kinetic Energy only measures Translational motion.
Internal Energy measures all motions.
0C ice and 0C water have the SAME kinetic energy, but differing Internal Energy.
This should help:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/inteng.html
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Zoe Phin
| #
Herb,
Some more aid for you:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/temper.html#c1
“we perceive temperature as the average translational kinetic energy associated with the disordered motion of atoms and molecules.”
You got it?
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geran
| #
Herb, I don’t believe those things. You’re just making stuff up, like you make up your pseudoscience.
Learn some physics, then you won’t have to insult, falsely accuse, and misrepresent others.
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