Speculation On How Lightning Happens
The charge difference between two objects becomes so great that electrons areable to ionize the air and flow from the objects with a negative charge to the positivecharge, producing a flash of light.
When the air molecules reform, neutralizing theircharges, it produces thunder.
In order to understand how this event occurs we need to review the nature of atoms, molecules, and the electrical charges they contain.
Atoms consist of a small nucleus in the center containing positive charged particles (protons) surrounded by an equal number of negatively charged particles (electrons). These electrons are in shells, whose distance to the nucleus increases as the number of electrons and shells grow.
As the shells gain distance from the nucleus they can hold more electrons. The lowest shell can contain two electrons and consists of the elements hydrogen and helium. When a shell becomes full or the outer shell contains eight electrons a new shell is created by the next added electron.
An atom with a full shell or eight in the outer shell form a stable structure called the noble gasses or inert gasses. Electrons like to travel in pairs so the atoms with unpaired electrons or unfilled shells are reactive trying to form stable structures.
Even though the equal number of positive and negative charges cause the atom as whole to be neutral, their positioning causes the atom to have a negative charge, since the field radiated by the electrons is larger than the field radiated by the protons.
The charge and unfilled shells cause different elements to react with other atoms to form molecules.
The alkaline metals like lithium, sodium, or potassium have one electron in the outer shell, which it would like to lose in order to form a noble gas structure. The halogens, (fluorine, chlorine, bromine, iodine) have outer shells with seven electrons and would like to gain an electron to form a stable structure.
When two atoms from these groups are combined the extra electron from the metal moves to the outer orbit of the halogen to create a salt crystal where the atoms are held together by charged atom ions. Sodium chloride or table salt is an example of this type of bond.
It is difficult for an atom to transfer or gain two electrons because the loss of an electron causes an increase in attraction between the positive nucleus and the remaining electrons. To form stable structures these elements share electrons creating covalent bonds. A hydrogen atom will combine with another hydrogen atom to form a structure similar to helium.
(Hydrogen with only one electron does not want to lose it and become a proton so it takes a lot of energy to strip that electron from a hydrogen atom to produce protons for accelerators.)
Oxygen, with six electrons in its outer shell will form a double bond with another oxygen atom to form oxygen gas while nitrogen missing three electrons will form a triple bond with another nitrogen atom to form nitrogen gas. These are stable molecules that do notgive up electrons.
These gasses and the stable Argon make up 99.9 percent of the atmospheric gasses.
The tendency of some elements to lose electrons while other elements want to gain electrons is why when you rub two different materials together, like silk and glass, a static electric charge (electrons) builds up on one of the materials as the other material loses electrons. The gasses in the atmosphere, including CO2, do not want to provide free electrons and create a static charge.
What then provides the free electrons that cause lightning?
The answer is the water in the atmosphere. The problem with this answer is that the water molecule, composed of two hydrogen atoms and an oxygen atom, does not want to lose electrons either. When water ionizes it produces positive hydrogen ion and a negative hydroxyl (OH-) ion, not a free electron.
Lightning is not created by water molecules producing free electrons. There are no free electrons in the atmosphere to have lightning flow from the atmosphere to the earth.
A problem for lightning flowing from the Earth to the clouds is that the surface of the Earth, which normally has a negative charge, becomes positive under a thunder cloud, meaning that free electrons should not be able to flow from the Earth’s surface to the clouds, so how can there be lightning?
As the cloud moves the positive charge under it also moves with it. Since the positive protons of atoms are in their nucleus, they cannot move. The only way that there could be a positive charge on the surface under a cloud would be if the cloud had a strong enough negative charge to repel the mobile electrons on the surface, making them move away from the cloud.
If the water molecules in the clouds have an equal number of electrons and protons (creating the structure of neon) how does they produce a powerful enough negative charge to repel the electrons on the surface?
Water does this by separating charged particles (like an atom) creating a structure that radiates a negative field that is larger than the positive field it radiates. Water in the
atmosphere is not a single molecule gas but a combination of molecules forming a liquid crystal that radiates a negative field.
These crystals form when water absorbs infrared radiation. The added energy causes some water molecules to become ionized forming hydrogen and hydroxyl ions. The negative hydroxyl ions combine with other water molecules to form a crystal structure of alternating hydrogen and oxygen atoms with a negative charge, around the positive charged ion forming a structure similar to an atom.
The positive hydrogen ion (proton) in the interior of the crystal combines with water molecules to form a stable structure in the center of the crystal with a positive charge. (if
a water molecules is V shaped with positive charge at the branches and a negative charge
As the water absorbs more infrared radiation and ionizes more water, more liquid crystals are formed and the inner wall of the existing liquid crystal grows thicker, increasing the negative charge of those water crystals (the size of the crystal does not increase). These crystal structures in the water act as antifreeze (similar to salt) that decreases the freezing point of the water and raises the boiling point.
Although the temperature difference between 0 C ice and 100 C steam is only 100 degrees it takes 720 calories (the energy needed to raising the temperature of 1 gram of water 1 C) to convert 0 C ice into 100 C steam. As the temperature of the water decreases the crystals lose energy and break apart reducing their number and their antifreeze action.
It requires an 80 calorie loss to convert a gram of 0 C water into a gram of 0 C ice. When the absorbed energy of the water increases and more crystals form, the increase in crystals/antifreeze changes the amount of energy needed to convert 1 gram of 100 C liquid water into 1 gram of 100 C water vapor to 540 calories.
If a thermometer was recording energy and the freezing point was set at 0 it would need 720 divisions instead of just 100.
As it rises it continues to absorb more kinetic energy from the sun increasing its negative charge (the kinetic energy of gas molecules increase with increased altitude) until it rises to the second melt point of the liquid crystal (top of troposphere).
At this altitude the surface of the crystal begins to melt, releasing electrons and causing the tropopause. These electrons adhere to the crystal, because of the positive charge in its center, until the crystal wall is breached. When this occurs the positive and negative charges combine releasing the absorbed stored energy into space.
The melting produces liquid water, which no negative electric charge, starts to fall towards the Earth. The falling liquid water and the rising liquid crystals produce the violent turbulence found in storm clouds. As the liquid water falls, radiation from the sun is blocked and it is without antifreeze.
This causes the water to freeze at a temperature well above 0 C. Updrafts, created by the rising liquid crystals, can propel these solid crystals (ice is less dense than water) to a higher altitude where they gain more liquid water creating larger ice chunks or hail. It is the reduction of liquid crystals in boiled water that causes it to freeze faster than room temperature water.
With the melting and neutralizing of liquid water crystals there is a reduction of the negative repelling charge to the electrons on the surface of the Earth. This causes the electrons to surge back under the cloud to atoms that have lost electrons, neutralizing the positive charge under the cloud. The cloud above now has a positive charge relative to
the surface of the Earth and the free electrons from the metals in the ground flow to the highest point and then to the clouds, like a discharging capacitor, creating a lightning bolt.
This action now produces free electrons in the atmosphere, (which are held by the molecules wanting more electrons) and then these free electrons are able flow betweenclouds as lightning, neutralizing their charges.
The free electrons coming from the surface of the Earth cause the negatively charged liquid crystals to continue rising to their melt point, where their charges are neutralized until all the liquid crystals have become liquid water, rain.
The free electrons in the cloud now become an unbalanced charge with the surface of the metals in the earth that lost them.
This causes the lightning to now reverse flow and move from the clouds to the surface, restoring neutrality to the atoms on the Earth.
The electrons that form lightning come from the Earth to the atmosphere and it is charges produced by water that cause it to flow.
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Howdy
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Static by the interaction of clouds is what I was told as a child (by a layman). Basically, the clouds bustling together like a balloon against hair, or feet shuffling against a carpet. A fact used by the Wimshurst machine, and van der Graph generator.
That’s my simple answer.
As a note, the Wimshurst machine seems to be the poor relation of the pair, since Van der Graph gets all the mentions. Could it be the music band of the same name that caused that, or was the VDG just superior by design?
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Herb Rose
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Hi Howdy,
To get a static charge you must rub different objects together, one wanting to lose an electron, the other wanting to gain an electron. None of the molecules in the atmosphere want to lose an electron. Even if it did occur both positive and negative charges would remain in the atmosphere so there would be no negative charge to repel electrons on the ground.
The molecules in the troposphere are continuously colliding so why does lightning only occur sometimes and not in all rain storms?
Herb
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Howdy
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Cumulonimbus vs lesser accumulations, Herb. More material, greater agitation, greater potential.
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Herb Rosr
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Hi Howdy,
Take a partially full container of water shake it as hard as you want and as long as you want then see how much static electricity is produced.
Herb
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Howdy
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Raindrops are individually suspended Herb, not one object, otherwise, wouldn’t rain fall as a massively damaging deluge, all at once?
D. Boss
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“The charge difference between two objects becomes so great that electrons areable to ionize the air and flow from the objects with a negative charge to the positivecharge, producing a flash of light.
When the air molecules reform, neutralizing theircharges, it produces thunder.”
Ah no, thunder is the result of the super heated air/plasma rapidly expanding and generating a blast pressure wave. It is purely a mechanical thing not unlike how a blast pressure wave makes a bang from explosives (which is also from a rapidly expanding plasma by the way). It has nothing to do with neutralizing charges (the acoustic pressure wave that is).
Thunder has a second element, which is that plasma channel has rapidly expanded forming a partial vacuum in the channel as it rapidly cools, and this secondary “anti” pressure wave (implosion) makes the rumbling after the initial clap of thunder. Explosives do this too, but they are so localized you miss the secondary sound of the implosion because of the difference in amplitude. A lightning channel is miles long so the rumble from he implosion can be distinct from the initial pressure clap due to speed of sound travel issues.
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T. C. Clark
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There is more than one type of lightning….lightning happens world wide about 100 times per second…most lightning is from cloud to cloud…if you are interested in lightning, just search it rather than use Herb Rosr is my advice.
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Howdy
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“most lightning is from cloud to cloud”
Sheet lightning? Not in my experience – it’s usually a line from cloud to ground, with even horizontal beaded making an appearance. Very few forked examples.
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T. C. Clark
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Could we wager some money? Does your computer have a search function? Just search causes of lightning.
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Howdy
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Wager… Are you for real? Keep your ego in check.
What does causes of lightning have to do with types of lightning that I just replied to. Perhaps you could respond to that?
Search function does not not produce facts anymore, even though it appears from your words thus far that you trust this dubious information. Sorry to say, it mostly contains what others want the person searching to see and believe.
Give me the old library books any day.
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T. C. Clark
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So, Howy, you continue to maintain that most lightning is not from cloud to cloud?
Howdy
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Took your time. Been looking?
Howy is it? Figures. Yeah, don’t tell me it’s a typo.
“My car’s faster than yours”, “My house is bigger than yours”
Let’s just get one thing straight shall we: I know of your childish responses of old. If you wish to be addressed in that vein of behaviour, don’t waste my time. I won’t put up with your **** waving crap.
I only answered your post because your claim is observably incorrect.
Now, I stated that it is “in my experience”, so I haven’t maintained anything.
Howdy
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It’s been around 45 minutes. Are we done? Good!
T. C. Clark
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Howy, you were WRONG about lightning not being mostly from cloud to cloud….you are free of course to believe whatever….but it doesn’t change the facts. Is it like 60 or 70% cloud to cloud?….including within a cloud?
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MattH
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The study of the relationship between solar activity (corona mass ejections etc) and weather and climate on earth is a relatively new and fast developing science.
Lighting is, at times, the string that ties earth to the sun through plasma.
Upper-atmospheric lightning and ionospheric lightning are terms sometimes used by researchers to refer to a family of short-lived electrical-breakdown phenomena that occur well above the altitudes of normal lightning and storm clouds. Upper-atmospheric
lightning is believed to be electrically induced forms of luminous plasma.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper-atmospheric_lightning
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprite_(lightning)
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James McGinn
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The only thing in the atmosphere that resembles a generator is a vortice. The sheaths of vortices are comprised of rapidly spinning, highly polar, polymers of H20. These polymers are, essentially, slivers of surface tension or slivers of ice. It is the constant banging of these slivers against one another that, I suspect, is what generates the electric charge of storms. And the reason we identify lightning with storms is because both are caused by vortice activity.
James McGinn / Solving Tornadoes
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Herb Rose
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Hi James,,
Neither hydrogen or oxygen want to give up electrons so what would cause an electron to go from one water molecule to an identical water molecule? Even if it did for every negatively charge molecule there would also be a positively charged molecule resulting in no excess negative charge to repel electrons on the surface. It cannot be molecules in the atmosphere that are creating this negative repelling force.
Herb
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Jerry Krause
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Hi James,
I believe I understand your comment. But, I ask: What forms the vortex?
Have a good day
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Jerry Krause
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Hi Herb,
Did you forget that an accepted assumption, supported by various experiments with the invented instrument termed the pH meter, that few water molecules spontaneously dissociate into a proton and an hydroxide ion and the proton (is assumes quickly react with another water molecule to form H3O+ (the hydronium ion, about which AI doesn’t seem to know).
Have a good day
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Herb Rose
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Hi Jerry,
Did you read the article? My supposition is based on IR energy creating hydroxyl and hydronium ions (I think that H5O4+ would be a more stable structure with the proton between the two oxygen atoms. Why do you think that a pH meter needs a temperature compensation device to be accurately calibrated.
Herb
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Jerry Krause
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Hi Herb,
No, I did not read your article because I first looked at how long it was.
For I heed Einstein’s wisdom who is said to have stated: “If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough.”
have a good day
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Herb Rose
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Hi Jerry,
there is also a saying “If you don’t know what your talking about, keep your mouth shut”
Herb
Jerry Krause
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Hi Herb,
The difference between our two sayings is I know some of Einstein’s scientific achievements but I do not even know the name of the author of your saying.
Have a good day
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Herb Rose
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Hi Jerry,
Einstein was wrong about everything.
Here’s another from Abraham Lincoln:” Better to be silent and thought a fool then to speak and remove all doubt”.
Herb
Jerry Krause
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Hi Herb,
Did Lincoln follow his own advice? And when you wrote “Einstein was wrong about everything.” you are helping me to convince PSI readers to beware of what you write. d
the nuclear bombs did not prove E=mc2 to be wrong!!!
Have a good day
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ecm
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” None of the molecules in the atmosphere want to lose an electron.”
It’s not a matter of WANTING to lose a charge, but HAVING to rapidly discharge excess energy that has accumulated in the clouds; it is not an “orderly” process via chemistry but one that overrides the normal state via a powerful breakout (i.e, earthquake, volcano, coitus, mitosis). Cosmic energy and its manifestation in biology always reaches a maximum potential of energy, and anything above that is discharged. Without these discharges, great damage would be done to each individual system, so there is an inherent natural law involved in this activity.
As mentioned, there is also “sheet lightening” which does not involve the chemistry/geology of earth (positive/negative charges), again adding weight to the overcharge factor.
"To get a static charge you must rub different objects together, one wanting to lose an
electron, the other wanting to gain an electron."
Rub your hair (organic) with a plastic comb (organic) and hold comb to electroscope, which will then deflect, showing a charge. Again, this negates the “positive/negative” hypothesis and shows excess energy accumulated on the comb.
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Herb Rose
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Hi Ecm,
Again where do the free electrons come from that allow the lightning bolt to split the O2 and N2 molecules in the atmosphere? It is excess electric charge neutralizing that provides the energy.
Matter wants to shed energy (radiate) and form more stable structures. This is why they combine molecules. Crystals form because the structure is more stable with its ionized atoms Han the atoms in a neutral state. The sharing of electrons (covalent bonds0 is also the result of the product having less energy than the parts.
Just because two objects are organic doesn’t make them the same. A benzene ring has different properties than hexane even though they are both composed of carbon and hydrogen. A diamond and graphite are both pure carbon but they have different appearance, physical, and electrical properties. Try rubbing two icicles together and see what kind of charge it produces.
Herb
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T. C. Clark
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A bolt out of the blue is a lightning strike that happens miles away from a storm….the sun may even be shining at the location….Nature just seems to want to make things complex and hard to understand.
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Jerry Krause
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Hi James,
Any ideas about this?
Have a good day
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Jerry Krause
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Hi T. C.
First “A bolt out of the blue”; thenI.the sun MAY even be shining”.Is the bolt out of a cloudless atmosphere or not?.
Have a goog day
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Howdy
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“A bolt out of the blue” simply means an unexpected occurrence that is a massive shakeup to the recipient. It is also known as: A tower moment, being knocked off your perch, a sudden life changing event that brings realisation of the truth, or situations not conducive to moving forward.
The tarot card.
https://www.buildingbeautifulsouls.com/tarot-card-meanings/major-arcana/tower-tarot-card-meanings/
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T. C. Clark
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Well, Jer, people standing outside can be in sun and see storm clouds in the distance……when KABOOM….lightning strikes nearby….maybe these people even feel a tingle…hair standing up before….KABOOM!
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Jerry Krause
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Hi Howdy,
The general topic of this article and its.comments has been natural lighting.
Have a good day
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Herb Rose
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How do you know what it is about since it is way to long for you to read.
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Herb Rose
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Another thought; Lightning occurs over oceans and bodies of fresh water. Is there a positive charge on these bodies of water and again where do the electrons that form the lightning come from?
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Howdy
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What about lightning in volcano eruptions Herb? Another instance of a multitude of close particles able to affect each other.
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Herb Rose
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Hi Howdy,
A volcano is hot enough to ionize molecules. There is also lightning in dust storms. Any where electric charges are separated, those charges will try to neutralize. Negative charges are mobile while protons are not. The problem lies in that when you produce a negative charge you also get a positive charge. What causes the imbalance in the atmosphere, where ions are mobile, to such an extent that it is able to produce a positive charge on the surface? In water the negative charge on neighboring molecules can pull a proton from a molecule leaving a hydroxyl ion. Why don’t the charges neutralize?
Herb
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Howdy
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The material acting as the dielectric, absorbing some of the charge, as in a capacitor?
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Herb Rose
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Hi Howdy,
My answer was that the liquid crystal water micro droplet have an exterior crystal shell formed when a negatively charged hydroxyl ion (OH-) combines with other water molecules. The proton combines with two water molecules inside the shell. It is the negative charge of the crystals that repels the electrons the surface with air molecules acting as a insulator. When the shell melts the negative charge disappears and the electrons on the surface surge back forming a lightning flow from the ground to the now neutral liquid water molecules. It is like a capacitor where the charge exceeds capacity of the insulation.
Herb
Howdy
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Different dielectrics yield different outcomes, Herb. Where the atmosphere is the dielectric the result is a flashover. This is just like a spark plug where a particular voltage is required to achieve ionization and the gap becomes conductive. I don’t see liquid crystals being present in combustion chambers.
Other than that, liquid crystals are in user displays where polarity causes alignment and characters are shown.